I'm trying Drupal for a second time (I'm a glutton for punishment!) and I've installed Drupal 5.1.
I can understand the basics and I can create content etc. but what I lack is a way to see the structure of the web site I'm creating. Is there anywhere in Drupal where I can see a list of pages that I have created, preferably with some sort of indication of the connections between them?
On Saturday 03 February 2007 2:34 pm, cl@isbd.net wrote:
I'm trying Drupal for a second time (I'm a glutton for punishment!) and I've installed Drupal 5.1.
Yeah, it's an addiction. :-)
I can understand the basics and I can create content etc. but what I lack is a way to see the structure of the web site I'm creating. Is there anywhere in Drupal where I can see a list of pages that I have created, preferably with some sort of indication of the connections between them?
By default, there isn't one. There's just a "pile of nodes". If you want a site to have a primary tree of some sort, my recommendation is to use the menu module and restrict the OTF menu item creation to the Primary Links menu. Then when you create a node, you can assign it to somewhere in that menu. That menu becomes your site structure.
If you want an at-a-glance view of the entire tree, I offer the menutree module[1] which was written to create a site map page out of that sort of setup. I've not updated it for 5.0 yet (I will be for a client site soon), but it should be trivial to upgrade. Patches welcome if you want to give it a shot. :-)
If you just want a list of nodes, the content page in the admin gives you that along with a simple search function.
http://drupal.org/project/menutree
On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 04:57:05PM -0600, Larry Garfield wrote:
On Saturday 03 February 2007 2:34 pm, cl@isbd.net wrote:
I'm trying Drupal for a second time (I'm a glutton for punishment!) and I've installed Drupal 5.1.
Yeah, it's an addiction. :-)
I can understand the basics and I can create content etc. but what I lack is a way to see the structure of the web site I'm creating. Is there anywhere in Drupal where I can see a list of pages that I have created, preferably with some sort of indication of the connections between them?
By default, there isn't one. There's just a "pile of nodes". If you want a
Hmm, typical!
site to have a primary tree of some sort, my recommendation is to use the menu module and restrict the OTF menu item creation to the Primary Links menu. Then when you create a node, you can assign it to somewhere in that menu. That menu becomes your site structure.
If you want an at-a-glance view of the entire tree, I offer the menutree module[1] which was written to create a site map page out of that sort of setup. I've not updated it for 5.0 yet (I will be for a client site soon), but it should be trivial to upgrade. Patches welcome if you want to give it a shot. :-)
If you just want a list of nodes, the content page in the admin gives you that along with a simple search function.
It just seems strange that something so essential/fundamental/useful (depends on your view I suppose) isn't in the default Drupal. It's not in Joomla either but it *is* in some other CMS and, at least for a newcomer it makes them a whole lot more usable.
cl@isbd.net wrote:
It just seems strange that something so essential/fundamental/useful (depends on your view I suppose) isn't in the default Drupal. It's not in Joomla either but it *is* in some other CMS and, at least for a newcomer it makes them a whole lot more usable.
This one really is a POV thing. Simply put, if your site is designed that way, it seems essential. But not all sites are designed that way.
I was actually just thinking to myself the other day that the old Site Map model has been slowly disappearing; the model is somewhat limiting, in that it really makes an assumption of static content that's placed in a library and then never or rarely changes. That's not really what CMS's are expecting to do. They're expecting to have living content that changes a lot.
In Drupal, people typically structure their content through taxonomy and/or the menu and/or the book module. You tag your content to fit it into the taxonomy structure and use taxonomy_menu to generate a tree.
Using the book module will automatically give you a default tree hierarchy, with navigation, and it's *very* typical on the net of having tiered content. I.e,
Foobar manual Introduction Chapter 1: Baz Baz for you? How to baz Why baz, anyway? Advanced baz Baz for breakfast Baz for lunch Baz for dinner
Each node in a book then includes forward/backward/up navigation, as well as a tree of all the nodes beneath it.
Book is fairly constrained, in the sense that it's harder to control the navigation output than I'd like, but it does the job if that's what you're looking for.
When using taxonomy to structure a site, you're 'grouping' nodes. You can use various taxonomy modules to create some kind of a structure to find node groups, and then browse through teasers. This, likely, isn't entirely what you want given what you've said, but you can also use things like taxonomy redirect and views to completely change exactly what it is you get when you go to a given taxonomy term. And you can use pathauto to get the tids out of the URLs so that it looks nicer.
And as Larry suggested, with the built in menu.module, you can give nodes menu entries as you create them, and put them in the menu structure.
The one thing I'll say: What you suggest basically, where you have a map of nodes and how the nodes link to each other...that's generally done done, in part because it makes the nodes too important. The content is expected to be fluid and come and go, and I think you're creating more in the way of static content. That's fine, and I understand what you want, but it does mean you're using a tool that's not quite meant for it, and as such sometimes things that seem fundamental to what you're doing simply won't be available because not that many people think about their site like that.
On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 09:56:59AM -0800, Earl Miles wrote:
cl@isbd.net wrote:
It just seems strange that something so essential/fundamental/useful (depends on your view I suppose) isn't in the default Drupal. It's not in Joomla either but it *is* in some other CMS and, at least for a newcomer it makes them a whole lot more usable.
This one really is a POV thing. Simply put, if your site is designed that way, it seems essential. But not all sites are designed that way.
Yes, I realise that, obviously a lot of people are using Drupal successfully so it must be possible! :-)
However one can only really voice one's own opinions, the world would be a very boring place if we didn't.
I was actually just thinking to myself the other day that the old Site Map model has been slowly disappearing; the model is somewhat limiting, in that it really makes an assumption of static content that's placed in a library and then never or rarely changes. That's not really what CMS's are expecting to do. They're expecting to have living content that changes a lot.
Yes, I suppose that's true and maybe that's why I'm having a problem finding a CMS that suits me because I *am* trying to create a fairly static site (and I think a fairly static site is right for my application).
In Drupal, people typically structure their content through taxonomy and/or the menu and/or the book module. You tag your content to fit it into the taxonomy structure and use taxonomy_menu to generate a tree.
But (at least for some sites) there is surely a requirement to have one page which is the front page and also, possibly/probably a few other 'fixed' places like a contacts page, or a forums page, or whatever. Surely *some* things need to be fixed or bookmarks will become useless.
Using the book module will automatically give you a default tree hierarchy, with navigation, and it's *very* typical on the net of having tiered content. I.e,
Foobar manual Introduction Chapter 1: Baz Baz for you? How to baz Why baz, anyway? Advanced baz Baz for breakfast Baz for lunch Baz for dinner
Each node in a book then includes forward/backward/up navigation, as well as a tree of all the nodes beneath it.
Book is fairly constrained, in the sense that it's harder to control the navigation output than I'd like, but it does the job if that's what you're looking for.
Ah, thanks, that looks interesting and could well suit what we're after.
When using taxonomy to structure a site, you're 'grouping' nodes. You can use various taxonomy modules to create some kind of a structure to find node groups, and then browse through teasers. This, likely, isn't entirely what you want given what you've said, but you can also use things like taxonomy redirect and views to completely change exactly what it is you get when you go to a given taxonomy term. And you can use pathauto to get the tids out of the URLs so that it looks nicer.
I can see that taxonomy makes sense for certain types of website but I don't think it's what we want.
And as Larry suggested, with the built in menu.module, you can give nodes menu entries as you create them, and put them in the menu structure.
The one thing I'll say: What you suggest basically, where you have a map of nodes and how the nodes link to each other...that's generally done done, in part because it makes the nodes too important. The content is expected to be fluid and come and go, and I think you're creating more in the way of static content. That's fine, and I understand what you want, but it does mean you're using a tool that's not quite meant for it, and as such sometimes things that seem fundamental to what you're doing simply won't be available because not that many people think about their site like that.
Yes, you're exactly right, I'm after creating something that isn't Drupal's main raison d'être, however there don't seem to be many (any) tools around which are aimed squarely at what I want. ... and I don't think what I'm after is all *that* unusual.
Op zondag 4 februari 2007 19:20, schreef cl@isbd.net:
Book is fairly constrained, in the sense that it's harder to control the navigation output than I'd like, but it does the job if that's what you're looking for.
Ah, thanks, that looks interesting and could well suit what we're after.
From what I read in you description, you probably want sympal_book_menu too.
Bèr
On Mon, Feb 05, 2007 at 01:05:27PM +0100, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op zondag 4 februari 2007 19:20, schreef cl@isbd.net:
Book is fairly constrained, in the sense that it's harder to control the navigation output than I'd like, but it does the job if that's what you're looking for.
Ah, thanks, that looks interesting and could well suit what we're after.
From what I read in you description, you probably want sympal_book_menu too.
I'll go and experiment some more now, it may well be that I don't use Drupal for our small business site but it may be what I need for other requirements.
BTW thank you everyone for all the help and feedback, much appreciated.
On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:20 AM, cl@isbd.net wrote:
Yes, you're exactly right, I'm after creating something that isn't Drupal's main raison d'être, however there don't seem to be many (any) tools around which are aimed squarely at what I want. ... and I don't think what I'm after is all *that* unusual.
It wasn't unusual, especially in the 1990s. However, the most effective websites these days are not so much brochures as they are conversations. Static pages are still possible using core modules, but Drupal is designed to be the framework for much much more powerful uses.
There are some concepts in Drupal that might help:
1) Each post does retain its url.
2) A post can serve as a static page.
3) You can also create pages that are defined by parameters you define. (See the Views module.) This way you can have a page like http://sampledomain.com/specials that displays in reverse chronological order each and every post you create that is about a special pricing or offer, so that people will always see the latest.
4) Taxonomy allows you to create navigation that goes sideways through your content. Example: You have an hierarchy of pages about motor vehicles. The top level is divided by manufacturer. The user can drill down into Chevrolet and finds pages on Chevy pick-ups. But now the person wants to look at other makes of pick-ups. You can either create manual links cross-referencing all similar models of cars across all makes, or force the user to go back up to the top level and drill down under each make they might be interested in, or you can use taxonomy to define new pages, dynamically generated, that show the user what he or she wants to see. (There are many many other modules that provide similar kinds of sideways slicing through content.)
5) Other ways of creating sitemaps exist, including the, um, sitemap module. :)
In other words, websites are alive, and less like books than they used to be in the days of yore. If all this seems like overkill for you, then Drupal might simply be too powerful and you might be better off creating a static site using Dreamweaver or a shareware/freeware facsimile.
Laura
On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:58:22 -0700, Laura Scott laura@pingv.com wrote:
On Feb 4, 2007, at 11:20 AM, cl@isbd.net wrote:
Yes, you're exactly right, I'm after creating something that isn't Drupal's main raison d'être, however there don't seem to be many (any) tools around which are aimed squarely at what I want. ... and I don't think what I'm after is all *that* unusual.
It wasn't unusual, especially in the 1990s. However, the most effective websites these days are not so much brochures as they are conversations. Static pages are still possible using core modules, but Drupal is designed to be the framework for much much more powerful uses.
Be that as it may, it's still not unusual. My company (a mostly non-Drupal shop, sadly) still builds mostly brochureware sites, where the client does want a hierarchy. (Or maybe it's the boss keeps selling them on a hierarchy, not sure <g>). For "classic architecture" sites, I find the menu module to be the most natural fit. That's what menutree.module was created for. Were that falls down is non-page nodes. Eg, if I want all "event" nodes to show as children of the "calendar/event" page, that requires manually futzing with the breadcrumb and active menu trail. It works, but it's messy. I'm not sure if there's a cleaner solution.
--Larry Garfield
"cl@isbd.net" wrote:
I'm trying Drupal for a second time (I'm a glutton for punishment!)
Your one-note song is really starting to be maddening. Why can't you find it in your fingers to simply not type these extraneous thoughts you have?
If you want to use the software, then do so with some spirit and cordiality. If you do not want to use the software, then consider your complaints noted and move on.
Please refrain from adding your not-very-important sarcasm, as it really makes me want to slap you with a wet trout (and filter all your email to the trash bin). As it is, I've deduced that you are trolling with flame-bait and that you are doing so out of a need for conflict.
On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 10:27:48AM -0500, inkfree press wrote:
"cl@isbd.net" wrote:
I'm trying Drupal for a second time (I'm a glutton for punishment!)
Your one-note song is really starting to be maddening. Why can't you find it in your fingers to simply not type these extraneous thoughts you have?
Sorry, I wasn't really trying to rub people up the wrong way.
If you want to use the software, then do so with some spirit and cordiality. If you do not want to use the software, then consider your complaints noted and move on.
Maybe I'm a bit more outspoken than some but I've been around the software development (and usenet, mailing lists, GPL software) world for a very long time and, in the main, have found that my comments are mostly welcome. I don't engage in flame wars but I do engage in 'lively argument' and I don't think that's necessaruly negative.
Please refrain from adding your not-very-important sarcasm, as it really makes me want to slap you with a wet trout (and filter all your email to the trash bin). As it is, I've deduced that you are trolling with flame-bait and that you are doing so out of a need for conflict.
No, I don't need conflict but I do like to understand why software seems, sometimes, to develop in what seem perverse ways.
I *really am* looking for a CMS to use for a personal small business web site and I'm finding it a *very* hard job to find a suitable tool to do it with. I keep coming back to Drupal for a number of reasons, e.g.:-
It's one of the most popular CMS It seems to have a lot of enthusiastic, active developers It has a mailing list as well as forums, I'm much happoer with E-Mail It runs quite nicely (i.e. smooth and quick) on my web host
.... but then I find I get stuck at what seem to me important requirements where Drupal is weak or lacking and thus I ask questions here to see if I'm misunderstanding.
I do give things back as well, see my recent posting about using Mozex with Drupal (or any CMS), that seems to me to be a really useful idea, especially if content formatting is important.
-
Bèr Kessels -
cl＠isbd.net -
Earl Miles -
inkfree press -
Larry Garfield -
Laura Scott