all fields in the create content forms now can be pre-populated from the URL
Hi, I very rarely rave about contrib modules. But this worths mentioning: http://drupal.org/node/55403 got fixed. Congratulations for everyone involved: egfrith and eafarris. Regards NK
I just want to alert everyone to the new theme work that's been placed in the issue queue: http://drupal.org/node/81217 As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal. There's still a fair amount of bug fixing, tweaking, and general fussing that needs to happen, but I wanted to show off the work that has been done so far, get some feedback from the community, and generally get these new themes on everyone's radar. We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com You can click on the the links on the first node on the home page to see the different themes "in action". Some background: There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). And then all of the sub-themes are simply the same HTML page structure with different CSS. The themes use a variation on the Holy Grail layout to create a table-free, 3-column, 2-column, or single column layout depending on whether blocks are enabled in the left or right columns. The themes also move the taxonomy and link lists into semantically-correct "ul" lists. The current icons used in the theme are not GPL, but Nathan Haug is currently creating icons that we will be able to use. The subthemes: - Zen Fixed :: a fixed-width version of the basic Zen theme. - Zen Beach :: a Drupal styled theme designed by Nathan Haug. Still a bit buggy, but very promising! - Zen Drops Big :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of big water drops - Zen Drops Small :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of small water drops ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _ _ _______ ______ _____ _______ | | | | | |_____| |_____] | | | |_____ |_____| |_____ |_____ | | |_____] |_____| | .com Jeff Robbins jeff@lullabot.com tel: 877-Lullabot ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The download doesn't seem to work, perhaps because the date is not yet 28.9.06 :-) I see the one at 81217. Does this have any relation to the discussion about a different theme for admin functions? -----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Robbins Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 9:11 PM To: development@drupal.org Subject: [development] New Themes for New Drupal I just want to alert everyone to the new theme work that's been placed in the issue queue: http://drupal.org/node/81217 As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal. There's still a fair amount of bug fixing, tweaking, and general fussing that needs to happen, but I wanted to show off the work that has been done so far, get some feedback from the community, and generally get these new themes on everyone's radar. We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com You can click on the the links on the first node on the home page to see the different themes "in action". Some background: There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). And then all of the sub-themes are simply the same HTML page structure with different CSS. The themes use a variation on the Holy Grail layout to create a table-free, 3-column, 2-column, or single column layout depending on whether blocks are enabled in the left or right columns. The themes also move the taxonomy and link lists into semantically-correct "ul" lists. The current icons used in the theme are not GPL, but Nathan Haug is currently creating icons that we will be able to use. The subthemes: - Zen Fixed :: a fixed-width version of the basic Zen theme. - Zen Beach :: a Drupal styled theme designed by Nathan Haug. Still a bit buggy, but very promising! - Zen Drops Big :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of big water drops - Zen Drops Small :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of small water drops ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _ _ _______ ______ _____ _______ | | | | | |_____| |_____] | | | |_____ |_____| |_____ |_____ | | |_____] |_____| | .com Jeff Robbins jeff@lullabot.com tel: 877-Lullabot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006
There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). And then all of the sub-themes are simply the same HTML page structure with different CSS. The themes use a variation on the Holy Grail layout to create a
Does the primary Zen theme stay away from browser hacks to get things to work? My initial exploration into Holy Grail descended into disgust: it abuses an awful lot to get things to look a certain way in browsers like IE, and I just can't stand browser hacks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- _ _ _______ ______ _____ _______ | | | | | |_____| |_____] | | | |_____ |_____| |_____ |_____ | | |_____] |_____| | .com
Jeff Robbins jeff@lullabot.com tel: 877-Lullabot ----------------------------------------------------------------------
4 lines max, delimited by "-- \n". -- Morbus Iff ( sleep breeds sanity ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
Jeff Robbins wrote:
As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal.
I didn't get the memo. I did hear rumors.
We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). ...
Things you will have a hard time getting past me: - Implementing any more theme functions than we have in the core themes at the moment. (see http://drupal.org/node/81217#comment-129980) - Styling form fields. These are notoriously inconsistent across platforms and I think are best left as-is anyway since form fields should always look like form fields. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
Jeff Robbins wrote:
As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal.
I didn't get the memo. I did hear rumors.
There were only rumors... no memos.
We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach That's the most "Drupaly" theme and the one that I would probably vote for as default. Whereas http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen might make a better admin theme, if users have both right and left sidebars activated. Also, I assume that the bluemarine theme will stay in core for at least a release or two. So those that love it can still use it if they'd like.
There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). ...
Things you will have a hard time getting past me: - Implementing any more theme functions than we have in the core themes at the moment. (see http://drupal.org/node/ 81217#comment-129980)
Well we can work on that. On the one hand, it might be good to have a theme function or two in the template.php to server as an "example" for themers. On the other, if they seem like sane redefinitions, perhaps they should be part of core. However, they should probably be handled as a separate patch, IMO.
- Styling form fields. These are notoriously inconsistent across platforms and I think are best left as-is anyway since form fields should always look like form fields.
I'm not sure I totally agree on this point. Some browsers ignore styling on form fields, so it is important to test on many browsers to see what is truly happening. But I think that a little bit of styling, particularly on form buttons can show a sense of style and maturity. Certainly they can be styled out of the realm of usability, but I think with a bit of testing, we can improve upon the nasty default button styling of browsers like Firefox. -jeff
I know I'll get flamed for this, and I really don't want to hurt anyones feelings, but these themes aren't particularly good visually. If Ted had his hand in them, I know they are solid from a standards point of view, which is always good. Looks are like anything, everyone has different opinions. IMHO, these themes aren't very sexy. Also, drops-small has a bug in it where, just below the header, things are shifted over to the right 1 px. ;) {FF/Linux} I wish I could afford to spend time working on a theme, sadly, financially I don't have that ability, or otherwise I would produce alternatives. Nice good efforts there guys. Not sure this should be included in core though. my .01 Trae PS. Whatever happened to Vancouver? It was fairly decent looking... On 8/29/06, Jeff Robbins <lists@jjeff.com> wrote:
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
Jeff Robbins wrote:
As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal.
I didn't get the memo. I did hear rumors.
There were only rumors... no memos.
We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach
That's the most "Drupaly" theme and the one that I would probably vote for as default.
Whereas http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen might make a better admin theme, if users have both right and left sidebars activated.
Also, I assume that the bluemarine theme will stay in core for at least a release or two. So those that love it can still use it if they'd like.
There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). ...
Things you will have a hard time getting past me: - Implementing any more theme functions than we have in the core themes at the moment. (see http://drupal.org/node/ 81217#comment-129980)
Well we can work on that. On the one hand, it might be good to have a theme function or two in the template.php to server as an "example" for themers. On the other, if they seem like sane redefinitions, perhaps they should be part of core. However, they should probably be handled as a separate patch, IMO.
- Styling form fields. These are notoriously inconsistent across platforms and I think are best left as-is anyway since form fields should always look like form fields.
I'm not sure I totally agree on this point. Some browsers ignore styling on form fields, so it is important to test on many browsers to see what is truly happening. But I think that a little bit of styling, particularly on form buttons can show a sense of style and maturity. Certainly they can be styled out of the realm of usability, but I think with a bit of testing, we can improve upon the nasty default button styling of browsers like Firefox.
-jeff
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Jeff Robbins wrote:
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach
I've hated bluemarine from the first time I saw it years ago right up to today. I only ever use it because it works. It's ugly. It looks like something from the web in 1996. If that's Drupal's branding, then Drupal is apparently well-known for having an ugly, out-of-date visual brand. IMHO, of course.
- Styling form fields. These are notoriously inconsistent across platforms and I think are best left as-is anyway since form fields should always look like form fields.
I'm not sure I totally agree on this point. Some browsers ignore styling on form fields, so it is important to test on many browsers to see what is truly happening. But I think that a little bit of styling, particularly on form buttons can show a sense of style and maturity. Certainly they can be styled out of the realm of usability, but I think with a bit of testing, we can improve upon the nasty default button styling of browsers like Firefox.
-jeff
Some day, all browser builders will get an f'ing clue, and allow controls to be styled properly. Until then, I agree with Jeff -- some improvement on some browsers is better than none. The one biggest thing that differentiates a well-written web application from a "real" binary application these days is the fugly form fields and controls. Also, IMHO. Respectfully yours, Curmudgeonly GUI developer since 1977 ..chrisxj
Thoughts on the themes: 1) The 'zen' theme would make an *awesome* administration theme or a no-nonsense portal site theme. It's attractive and clean. 2) I love the variations concept -- it's a great example of how much can be done with a good foundation. 3) I love the header for zen-beach, but really dislike the color scheme. The yellow background feels out of place and the stark white of the page (with no differentiation for sidebars) leaves me cold. The core zen and zen-fixed, on the other hand, are downright soothing to look at. :) 4) I don't think I like the use of a serif for the node post info. I'd much rather see a daring move to a theme with *content* in a serif font, and node post-info in a smaller sans-serif font, perhaps italicized. That's a matter of taste, of course. The earlier comments about the themes being 'blah' or 'vanilla'... I think I disagree. They're very good *general* drupal themes. We don't really have the luxury in core of providing hyper-focused themes. This is a no-nonsense, attractive set of themes (with the caveats mentioned in 3) that can (as demonstrated here) be styled in a variety of ways. The only concerns, I think, are the proliferation of additional theming functions mentioned by previous posters. Steef is working on another theme, and has passed some screenshots around IRC. If we were to add the 'zen family' and his 'bluelagoon' theme, it would be a really impressive boost for 4.8/5.0 IMO. --Jeff
On Tuesday 29 August 2006 04:33, Jeff Robbins wrote:
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach
That's the most "Drupaly" theme and the one that I would probably vote for as default.
It's a fixed width theme and Bluemarine is not. I know lots of people like fixed width themes and Web sites, but I personally can't stand them. I hate having to scroll down a long page when there's 2-4 inches of unused screen real-estate on either side of the content. If I want a narrower presentation, I'll re-size the browser window (which makes the text wrap, which sets Morbus on edge... :^)). -- Jason Flatt http://www.oadae.net/ Father of Six: http://www.flattfamily.com/ (Joseph, 13; Cramer, 11; Travis, 9; Angela; Harry, 5; and William, 12:04 am, 12-29-2005) Linux User: http://www.sourcemage.org/ Drupal Fanatic: http://drupal.org/
It's a fixed width theme and Bluemarine is not. I know lots of people like fixed width themes and Web sites, but I personally can't stand them.
Make that two people who can't stand them.
I hate having to scroll down a long page when there's 2-4 inches of unused screen real-estate on either side of the content. If I want a narrower presentation, I'll re-size the browser window (which makes the text wrap, which sets Morbus on edge... :^)).
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar. Coders code. Designers Design. And it's a very rare thing when the two meet. Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm] I'll shut up now. On 8/29/06, Jason Flatt <drupal@oadae.net> wrote:
On Tuesday 29 August 2006 04:33, Jeff Robbins wrote:
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach
That's the most "Drupaly" theme and the one that I would probably vote for as default.
It's a fixed width theme and Bluemarine is not. I know lots of people like fixed width themes and Web sites, but I personally can't stand them. I hate having to scroll down a long page when there's 2-4 inches of unused screen real-estate on either side of the content. If I want a narrower presentation, I'll re-size the browser window (which makes the text wrap, which sets Morbus on edge... :^)).
-- Jason Flatt http://www.oadae.net/ Father of Six: http://www.flattfamily.com/ (Joseph, 13; Cramer, 11; Travis, 9; Angela; Harry, 5; and William, 12:04 am, 12-29-2005) Linux User: http://www.sourcemage.org/ Drupal Fanatic: http://drupal.org/
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Please don't shut up Trae We need real design in drupal themes. Best Gunnar Trae McCombs wrote:
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar.
Coders code.
Designers Design.
And it's a very rare thing when the two meet.
Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm]
I'll shut up now.
Yes let occy as in hockey speak! Robin On 8/29/06, Gunnar Langemark <gunnar@langemark.com> wrote:
Please don't shut up Trae We need real design in drupal themes.
Best Gunnar
Trae McCombs wrote:
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar.
Coders code.
Designers Design.
And it's a very rare thing when the two meet.
Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm]
I'll shut up now.
-- Robin Monks, CivicSpace Release Engineer - http://civicspacelabs.com Drupal Marketing Coordinator - http://drupal.org Encrypt! http://tinyurl.com/ffo3l - http://www.gpg4win.org/
Very true. But in this situation (fluid vs. fixed), we are users too. We browse the web like others, and hence . Our color and layout selection may be ugly (most times it is), but we have a say in usability like other humans (unless you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that developers are aliens, which is another discussion). Oh, and don't shut up. On 8/29/06, Trae McCombs <traemccombs@gmail.com> wrote:
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar.
Coders code.
Designers Design.
And it's a very rare thing when the two meet.
Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm]
I'll shut up now.
On 8/29/06, Jason Flatt <drupal@oadae.net> wrote:
On Tuesday 29 August 2006 04:33, Jeff Robbins wrote:
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Neil Drumm wrote:
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Please see: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com/node?theme=zen-beach
That's the most "Drupaly" theme and the one that I would probably vote for as default.
It's a fixed width theme and Bluemarine is not. I know lots of people like fixed width themes and Web sites, but I personally can't stand them. I hate having to scroll down a long page when there's 2-4 inches of unused screen real-estate on either side of the content. If I want a narrower presentation, I'll re-size the browser window (which makes the text wrap, which sets Morbus on edge... :^)).
-- Jason Flatt http://www.oadae.net/ Father of Six: http://www.flattfamily.com/ (Joseph, 13; Cramer, 11; Travis, 9; Angela; Harry, 5; and William, 12:04 am, 12-29-2005) Linux User: http://www.sourcemage.org/ Drupal Fanatic: http://drupal.org/
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Khalid B wrote:
But in this situation (fluid vs. fixed), we are users too. We browse the web like others, and hence . Our color and layout selection may be ugly (most times it is), but we have a say in usability like other humans (unless you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that developers are aliens, which is another discussion).
Open source: you are your own user. Usability: you are not the user. The only sane thing to do is use ideas from both when they make sense for the situation. On the fixed vs. fluid holy war... I'm not going to say anything and I suggest we try making compromises instead of saying how much the other sucks.
Oh, and don't shut up.
-- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
On 8/29/06, Neil Drumm <drumm@delocalizedham.com> wrote:
Khalid B wrote:
But in this situation (fluid vs. fixed), we are users too. We browse the web like others, and hence . Our color and layout selection may be ugly (most times it is), but we have a say in usability like other humans (unless you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that developers are aliens, which is another discussion).
Open source: you are your own user. Usability: you are not the user.
The only sane thing to do is use ideas from both when they make sense for the situation.
Not sure what the point here is. What I am saying is that when I browse my site, I am a user too, not just the developer. I may choose ugly colors and silly layout that will turn the designer folk off. But to me, the fixed width (or fluid, depending on which camp you are in) is not something that is to be forced on me as a user by the designers, since I am the audience of the site.
On the fixed vs. fluid holy war... I'm not going to say anything and I suggest we try making compromises instead of saying how much the other sucks.
I don't want to start a holy war either. I am aware that fixed width is preferred by a lot of design folk, for various reasons. So far, Drupal has shipped with fluid designs in core, and there is no good reason to change that. So, the new theme (or a subset), must be fluid like Bluemarine.
On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 14:33 -0400, Khalid B wrote:
Very true.
But in this situation (fluid vs. fixed), we are users too. We browse the web like others, and hence . Our color and layout selection may be ugly (most times it is), but we have a say in usability like other humans (unless you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that developers are aliens, which is another discussion).
Oh, and don't shut up.
but developers are aliens, and often our design and user interface exposes more of the guts than the average end user needs or wants. .darrel.
On 29-Aug-06, at 1:17 PM, Trae McCombs wrote:
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar.
Coders code.
Designers Design.
And it's a very rare thing when the two meet.
Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm]
I'll shut up now.
As a designer, I think you know quite a bit on the subject. ;) However, comments like "less than stellar" and "aren't particularly good visually" and "aren't very sexy" and stuff don't really help. They allude vaguely to a problem but offer no recourse for how to address it, or even how to identify where to start addressing it. On the other hand, what would help A LOT is if someone with a "design eye" would point out specific places in the themes where there are problems and, where possible, suggest alternatives (people have been doing this with the Zen Beach colour scheme, which is great). Alternatively, even if you as a designer don't have time to do a theme yourself, you can help by pointing out a look and feel of another website or something that would qualify as "sexy," or specific elements we can try and incorporate into the design to use as inspiration. I think we all can universally agree that bluemarine is out-dated and needs to be changed. What we as coders need are constructive and moreover *actionable* criticism/comments so we can make this happen. -Angie
You aren't wrong Angela... But as I said, I'd love to spend time on it, sadly, time is money. Is there someone willing to fund development on this? If I was single or even if I didn't have any kids, I'd work on this for hours on end for free. But we gotta feed the children :) Trae On 8/29/06, Angela Byron <drupal-devel@webchick.net> wrote:
On 29-Aug-06, at 1:17 PM, Trae McCombs wrote:
The biggest problem here is, a bunch of coders who all of a sudden have a supposed "design sense". As long as coders are the ones who approve themes into core, and other coders all chime in with what they think is good, then the end result will continuously be less than stellar.
Coders code.
Designers Design.
And it's a very rare thing when the two meet.
Of course, I'm just a designer, so... "What do I know?"[tm]
I'll shut up now.
As a designer, I think you know quite a bit on the subject. ;)
However, comments like "less than stellar" and "aren't particularly good visually" and "aren't very sexy" and stuff don't really help. They allude vaguely to a problem but offer no recourse for how to address it, or even how to identify where to start addressing it.
On the other hand, what would help A LOT is if someone with a "design eye" would point out specific places in the themes where there are problems and, where possible, suggest alternatives (people have been doing this with the Zen Beach colour scheme, which is great). Alternatively, even if you as a designer don't have time to do a theme yourself, you can help by pointing out a look and feel of another website or something that would qualify as "sexy," or specific elements we can try and incorporate into the design to use as inspiration.
I think we all can universally agree that bluemarine is out-dated and needs to be changed. What we as coders need are constructive and moreover *actionable* criticism/comments so we can make this happen.
-Angie
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Op 29-aug-2006, om 22:19 heeft Trae McCombs het volgende geschreven:
You aren't wrong Angela... But as I said, I'd love to spend time on it, sadly, time is money. Is there someone willing to fund development on this?
If I was single or even if I didn't have any kids, I'd work on this for hours on end for free. But we gotta feed the children :)
Trae
As I feel myself more or less responsible for having at leat one beautified theme in core, I'm willing to put some effort on this and would like to design a *complete* design for drupal core. Most of you people probably know that I'm a photographer for my dayjob, which makes me comfortable with colours, design and eye-candy.. It's all about details. But, something that keeps me bussy these days, while overthinking a good theme is when does people think a theme is good? Personally, I think my themes are good, very good even. (They are this good, that every theme I did design and wanted to contribute to drupal is sold before it was even finished.) But some people think they are overdone.. And I respect that, but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into a theme when it's not likely to hit the trunk.. So, *if* people want to have me design a new drupal core theme, I want to know what they expect and what they are willing to see.. I hope people want to share their opinions and tell me what they expect from a new core theme. It makes the design process for me, or any other that is willing to get the job done, much easier.. Yours sincerely, Steef PS: there is no way, I'm going to make it before the code freeze. So *or* Dries has todo some consensus, or maybe someone else should get the job done.
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Angela Byron wrote:
On 29-Aug-06, at 1:17 PM, Trae McCombs wrote:
On the other hand, what would help A LOT is if someone with a "design eye" would point out specific places in the themes where there are problems and, where possible, suggest alternatives (people have been doing this with the Zen Beach colour scheme, which is great). Alternatively, even if you as a designer don't have time to do a theme yourself, you can help by pointing out a look and feel of another website or something that would qualify as "sexy," or specific elements we can try and incorporate into the design to use as inspiration.
Let me plug in eaton from the IRC conversation around the theme.
<eaton> Sigh. on the dev list, the advice being given is: Make it sexy and snazzy, but make it simply and bare-bones. <eaton> heh.
Angie did not ask me, but Trae, although let me take the opportunity. *I* expected to see a theme like Deliciously Blue introduced in core for 4.8/5.0. It is the "sexy and snazzy, but simle and bare-bones" I would dream about for Drupal core. It should be simple to do, not many images, etc. Let me quote "Mars" from the OSWD page of Deliciously Blue: | Stunning design. It's so simple and yet it's beautiful. | I never thought simple could mean beautiful, simply excellent. At OWSD: http://www.oswd.org/design/information/id/2634 As a Drupal theme: http://drupal.org/project/deliciously_blue Of course it might need some better treatment for the blocks, plus make it fluid, but if I would have time to do a *simple* theme for Drupal core, I would go this way (not exatly with this theme). Because of the looks of it. It's blue (maybe not blue enough, but it could be solved), it looks dynamic, fresh and overall sexy. BTW I just reviewed core themes, and I was shocked to see that not only bluemarine, but chameleon (plus marvin which is based on it) and pushbutton is also using tables for layout. Four out of the four core themes! All use tables! Pushbutton uses a one cell table for the footer for example. Incredible. Unbelievable. Gabor
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
At OWSD: http://www.oswd.org/design/information/id/2634 As a Drupal theme: http://drupal.org/project/deliciously_blue
Here is a theme which was probably based on deliciously_blue and evolved into a more bluemarine-ish feel (although I myself dislike the sharp gradient in the header background, and the too-much-blue feeling, the sidebars are probably nicely done for a simple theme like this). http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2695 Gabor
On 30 Aug 2006, at 01:01, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
At OWSD: http://www.oswd.org/design/information/id/2634 As a Drupal theme: http://drupal.org/project/deliciously_blue
Here is a theme which was probably based on deliciously_blue and evolved into a more bluemarine-ish feel (although I myself dislike the sharp gradient in the header background, and the too-much-blue feeling, the sidebars are probably nicely done for a simple theme like this).
I don't like it, but I _do_ like http://www.oswd.org/files/designs/ 2634/Deliciously_Blue/. :) It has some blue, it's simple, looks professional, but not necessarily boring. :) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Dries Buytaert wrote:
I don't like it, but I _do_ like http://www.oswd.org/files/designs/ 2634/Deliciously_Blue/. :)
It has some blue, it's simple, looks professional, but not necessarily boring. :)
Dries, furtunetely Farsheed contributed a theme like this one for Zen, so this can follow up with jjeff's efforts. Gabor
On 29.Aug.2006, at 06:36 PM, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
Of course it might need some better treatment for the blocks, plus make it fluid, but if I would have time to do a *simple* theme for Drupal core, I would go this way (not exatly with this theme). Because of the looks of it. It's blue (maybe not blue enough, but it could be solved), it looks dynamic, fresh and overall sexy.
+1 Definitely.
At OWSD: http://www.oswd.org/design/information/id/2634 As a Drupal theme: http://drupal.org/project/deliciously_blue
Of course it might need some better treatment for the blocks, plus make it fluid, but if I would have time to do a *simple* theme for Drupal core, I would go this way (not exatly with this theme). Because of the looks of it. It's blue (maybe not blue enough, but it could be solved), it looks dynamic, fresh and overall sexy.
Indeed something like the above theme was what I envisioned going into core as well. If we could style the zen theme like the above theme I think it would be a good combination. I might try and take a stab at that myself, although I need to see how the zen theme works first. Farsheed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Just letting people know on the list that I uploaded a rough "K2 + deliciously blue + zen" combo theme on the issue Jeff started: http://drupal.org/node/81217 --- Farsheed <tfarsheed@yahoo.com> wrote:
At OWSD: http://www.oswd.org/design/information/id/2634 As a Drupal theme: http://drupal.org/project/deliciously_blue
Of course it might need some better treatment for the blocks, plus make it fluid, but if I would have time to do a *simple* theme for Drupal core, I would go this way (not exatly with this theme). Because of the looks of it. It's blue (maybe not blue enough, but it could be solved), it looks dynamic, fresh and overall sexy.
Indeed something like the above theme was what I envisioned going into core as well. If we could style the zen theme like the above theme I think it would be a good combination. I might try and take a stab at that myself, although I need to see how the zen theme works first.
Farsheed
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I think there is a lot of noise and less structure on discussion what are Bluemarine's strenghts and weaknesses. What I have got so far are following problem areas 1) Underlying xhtml+css structure. This surely needs to be rebuilt from ground-up and there are already several initiatives, creatings a strong reference platform for all themers. I'd like to add a Sandbox initiative to the mix (http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/ , down in the time of writing + a related blog post from our friend factoryjoe http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/06/wordpress-makes-a-move-towards-hatom-g...). And there are also microformats and hAtom looming in the horizon. 2) the overall graphical styling of Bluemarine. Most of the concerns has the overall styling (just an areas filled with color), too plain header, no tab support in header, not enough styling for blocks, bad separation of blocks etc). Area (1) should be mostly of Drupal code/xhtml/css- wizards concern, it just seems to need more consolitation and aggregation of the efforts. And we have some true professionals on board for this are, yay. If there is no (2) ready for the time (1), apply Bluemarine or his sibling for transition process. Area (2) is the weak spot, so far it seems hard to seduce even the smalltime-celebrity-designers on board. There are lot of stuff we could do to though. Some quick ideas to improve the process of VISUAL designing: - Have a CSS development reference sandbox to design against to and automatic links generated in the issue tracker that pass the attached CSS file to the reference theme sandbox. Example #12 Here's my take Attachment: drupal.org/files/take1.css Test it: http:themesandbox.drupal.org/?css=drupal/org/files/take1.css (this is similar to proposed for auto-patching code sandboxes but luckily less harmful) This would speed up the process of visual comparision and peer contributions "look, I took yr #11 patch and changed the header to red, what do you think". Also, combining it with some handy css tools like Firefox Web Developer Toolbar, one could open a sandbox theme in his browser, whip up a custom CSS, and upload it do Drupal issue queue, having automatic link against the sandbox. - have automatic thumbnails of PNGs that are attached on issue followups - You could look at design as the branching decision tree. What have happened so far with all the these zen-themes discussion and bustling emotions is that only the end result is presented to the review. The decision tree is hidden and it's often impossible for outsiders to understand why certain path was taken, why certaing decor elements were chosen, where from the inconcistency originally came from etc. If the reviewers could have a glimpse to the ealier part of the process, lot of extra work and redoing would have been avoided. - write the step by step design tutorials how to move from barebone sandbox to a completed theme (ber has worked on this). If you take your design process properly in pieces you will see that it is not subconcious artsy process only the chosen ones could do. There are just golden rules that makes your life easier. There are tried and readability tested body font configurations, 1-3 main stylings for h2, a white, light or dark header, lot of reference color schemes that always work http://www.colorschemer.com/schemes/index.php. Even with no bitmap graphics elements you could come up with good-looking theme if you just follow the rules. - collect the examples that we like. Not only the best of blog design (like 9rules.com sisters) but also more hard-working themes such as 37signals products and it's many clones, number-crunchers like http://www.blinksale.com/learn/ etc etc.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Kristjan Jansen wrote:
- Have a CSS development reference sandbox to design against to and automatic links generated in the issue tracker that pass the attached CSS file to the reference theme sandbox. Example
#12 Here's my take Attachment: drupal.org/files/take1.css Test it: http:themesandbox.drupal.org/?css=drupal/org/files/take1.css
(this is similar to proposed for auto-patching code sandboxes but luckily less harmful)
This is probably the easiest to do, probably with a special input filter. And a very good idea. Gabor
What is wrong with my model (below) of what themes should be in a Drupal release? The themes that come with Drupal are there so that when you install a brand new site something actually appears on the screen. Since the first thing the installer has to do is get the site basically customized with the right contrib modules, etc., some theme friendly to administration is essential. After the site is basically working correctly, the next step is to make it look "nice" for users. "Nice" of course depends on lots of things completely out of control of Drupal developers. For a large corporate site they want a very unique look and will hire a designer. Drupal does not need to cater to them beyond making the theming engine easy to use. For a small niche site, almost any theme will do as long as it can be easily tweeked to look slightly different from right out of the box. Most of these will replace Druplicon with their logo and perhaps pick a different base color. That is easy to do with the current Bluemarine and hopefully just as easy with any new replacement. One might make this slightly easier by allowing them to customize colors by filling out a form, just like they currently replace the icon. There seem to be two different base themes, liquid and fixed, which various people prefer for various reasons. There is no good reason for not having one of each in the release so that people can easily pick one. Are there other bases that might be important? One issue that has not been talked about in this discussion is themes with heavy use of Ajax. Perhaps having a base that supports it is another class of base theme. Leave the rest of the theme business to our wonderful collection in the Theme Garden and those available on external sites.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Farsheed wrote:
Just letting people know on the list that I uploaded a rough "K2 + deliciously blue + zen" combo theme on the issue Jeff started:
WOW! Thanks for contributing this. And special thanks for making this on the zen foundations, so we have a proof that it is versatile :) Extra happiness for jjeff. ;) Ps. Unfortunately K2 and consequently this theme still use famfamfam icons, which are sexy (and we use a slight K2 variant at drupal.hu with these icons, so we love them). But highly unfortunately these are not GPL :(( Gabor
Just letting people know on the list that I uploaded a rough "K2 + deliciously blue + zen" combo theme on the issue Jeff started:
WOW! Thanks for contributing this. And special thanks for making this on the zen foundations, so we have a proof that it is versatile :) Extra happiness for jjeff. ;)
(Quick link for the lazy: http://www.drupalart.org/drupal48/) There is room for improvement (eg. the placement/integration of Druplicon in the header) and it isn't complete (eg. search box in header, decent mission statement, categories and author information) but I really like this so far. It actually reminds me a bit of bluemarine: it could be bluemarine's pretty sister. :-) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Ps. Unfortunately K2 and consequently this theme still use famfamfam icons, which are sexy (and we use a slight K2 variant at drupal.hu with these icons, so we love them). But highly unfortunately these are not GPL :((
Gabor
ok - I have switched to GPL-only icons, from the mini/silk libraries that jjeff had posted with the original files. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
On the other hand, what would help A LOT is if someone with a "design eye" would point out specific places in the themes where there are problems and, where possible, suggest alternatives
I'll speak up since I'm a designer as well as a developer (and an end user), and since I find it important that the core themes are brilliant. I took a quick look at the themes before and had kind of a bad feeling about some of it. So I tried to nail down some the individual problems (as I see them). I'm trying to be pragmatic here by commenting on Jeff's work, rather than trying to describe my own perfect dream theme. First, let me just give an overall "Good work"! I know this is work in progress and that some of these may be obvious points that you're already aware of. I've only looked at the front pages, so I won't comment on forms, admin stuff etc. Oh, and I've been reviewing the themes using Safari/ OS X. - General comment: If what we're looking for is eye-candy, something that makes people think great things about Drupal, then I don't think Zen (the original) really does it. Beach and Drop however seem to have a potential to become attractive and solid default themes. On the other hand, Zen feels very functional and might attract people who prefer those qualities. It would probably make a good admin theme. A general feeling though is that there is some unnecessary complexity sometimes. Too many colors, borders, icons etc. Maybe too little whitespace. OK, I'll try to be more specific. - Body text: I think the text size is too big in Zen. Beach is better. Drops is even better since I (and I think people in general) find Verdana more friendly than Arial. How about using Trebuchet MS for one of the themes, maybe just for headings? Line-height (="leading") is far too low in Zen and Beach and too big in Drops. Somewhere in between should be great. - Headings: Way too large in Zen. Beach looks OK but in Drops they're a bit too big. The underlines in linked headings seem a bit too striking although in drops-big they are more subtle which is good. Drops-small has capital letters which is kind of cool but I think they'd have to be smaller so they don't dominate the page completely. - Info text etc: I agree with an earlier poster that the node links/ publication info should not use a serif font when the body text is sans-serif. Try Georgia for the body text in, say, Drops, but make the links sans-serif. They are way too big in Zen (I think there's a pattern here!) and I'd make them a tiny bit smaller in Beach as well. - Icons: In "Recent blog posts", "Active forum topics" and "Who's new" the icons seem more or less superfluous to me. They don't tell me anything about the individual links. Especially the node icons are too striking in this context I think. The user icons seem like the most justified of these three. Another thing about icons is I think they should be as color neutral as possible to make them blend together nicely and work well with different color schemes. Or they could all follow a specific color scheme - that looks great but it makes them less reusable. - Blocks: I like the way the're done in Drops (both versions). They're kind of nice in Beach as well without borders, but they might need more whitespace between them. And smaller headings. I'm not so sure about Zen's blocks. There seem to be too many squares and lines everywhere. Look at the mission statement - there are no borders at all, and I think that looks great! As an example of the opposite, if you move your eye from within a block to the content column you'll cross two lines AND move from gray to white background. Is that necessary? I think the sidebars would look better without the block borders. Maybe use only horizontal borders between the blocks? In Beach the text within blocks should be made smaller so that it's easier to distinguish between blocks and the body text on the page. That's a general rule of thumb I guess; block text should be smaller than the body text IMO. - Colors: Drops looks good in general, Beach even more so - if we fade the yellow background a bit. Zen. I think light grays are nice, especially in an admin theme. But I'd go for a darker header - maybe blue with white text like in the other themes. Zen-fixed. I don't like the purple background. How about white or light blue? - It seems silly to provide both drops-big and drops-small since they're so similar. The main difference is the header image which will often get replaced anyway. By the way, I'm not crazy about the rounded box in the header. I think it has to do with it being at the same time semi-light on the dark header and semi-dark on the white background. I think I'd like it to be either dark or light - or replace it with another solution. - Drops has a too narrow middle column. I suggest you disable the right column. - Fixed vs. Fluid: I think it's obvious from the discussion that we should provide both in core. I prefer fixed since it gives me as a themer control over the proportions between the different elements on the page. But I'm fine with fluid as a default if that is the majority's opinion. - Bonus tip: Include 'Bitstream Vera Sans' with Verdana, 'Bitstream Vera Serif' with Georgia and 'Bitstream Vera Mono' (I think that's it) with Courier - if you haven't already done so. For all the brave Linux users. Well, I could go on about this forever... I have to stop for now, but I'd be happy to review any new versions you guys make. Hope you found some of this useful. /Hannes Lilljequist - zoo33
Let me just point out that: Design != Usability != Coding In other words, there are not 2 pieces here, but rather 3. I've seen lots of a really slick looking wow-your-socks-off designs, but they sucked at usability. True, design affects usability (just as coding can). So, Trae, I love ya, man. ;-) It's true -- good design is something that coders rarely do well (I *know* I suck at it). But we need to get some good usability, too.
Visual Design != Usability Visual Design = User Experience andre
Well. As long as the user does nothing but stare. ;) --Jeff
-----Original Message----- From: Andre Molnar [mailto:mcsparkerton@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:25 PM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] New Themes for New Drupal
Visual Design != Usability Visual Design = User Experience
andre
It's a fixed width theme and Bluemarine is not. I know lots of people like fixed width themes and Web sites, but I personally can't stand them. I hate having to scroll down a long page when there's 2-4 inches of unused screen real-estate on either side of the content. If I want a narrower presentation, I'll re-size the browser window (which makes the text wrap, which sets Morbus
For what it's worth, I like liquid designs /because/ I can resize the window. That way, I can "solve" the ugly text wrapping myself, just by resizing. Yes, I resize windows a lot, and I thank the ability to do so. -- Morbus Iff ( dare you overpower my stench of eeeevil? ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/ icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus
A couple comments...
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Too far from bluemarine is a *very good thing*! a) Bluemarine is a table-based theme. It is 2006. CSS has been around since 1999? For all the cutting-edge web standards that Drupal supports, you would never know it by its default theme. b) I don't know if you were around in Vancouver for this discussion, but Matt from WordPress pointed out that WordPress didn't start getting some really nice contributed themes until it started shipping with a nice default theme. Lack of good contributed themes has consistently ranked among the top 10 barriers to entry for Drupal; it's time we addressed the #1 issue impeding this. c) As the drops and zen-beach theme illustrate, Zen allows you to completely re-style the look and feel of the site using only CSS. We're always talking about making Drupal easier to theme. Zen as a default theme would negate the need for designers to know _any_ HTML and PHP. This can only be seen as a good thing.
Things you will have a hard time getting past me: - Implementing any more theme functions than we have in the core themes at the moment. (see http://drupal.org/node/ 81217#comment-129980)
As someone who's worked on both the documentation side and the user support side, I actually am for including template.php with the default theme and including a few examples of overrides in it. Writing documentation and explaining to end users how the template.php file works is really challenging when there's no basis in core on how to use them -- people learn best by taking an example and modifying it to their needs.
- Styling form fields. These are notoriously inconsistent across platforms and I think are best left as-is anyway since form fields should always look like form fields.
I don't really feel strongly one way or the other on this point, but in looking around, it seems a lot of major sites catering to a general demographic (Amazon, Yahoo, etc.) have some sort of form styling going on, in their submit buttons if nothing else. -Angie
Angela Byron wrote:
A couple comments...
These themes need to be somewhere between "looks like Drupal" and "clean enough to build off of." What I see here looks like a full palate competing with the Drupal branding and the themer trying to find the shortest way to their own color scheme. It does look good, but too far from bluemarine to be a good default.
Too far from bluemarine is a *very good thing*!
a) Bluemarine is a table-based theme. It is 2006. CSS has been around since 1999? For all the cutting-edge web standards that Drupal supports, you would never know it by its default theme.
Yes, it should be tableless, I assumed that would be assumed by anyone working on this. I'm primarily concerned with the visual style and could care less what div soup makes it.
b) I don't know if you were around in Vancouver for this discussion, but Matt from WordPress pointed out that WordPress didn't start getting some really nice contributed themes until it started shipping with a nice default theme. Lack of good contributed themes has consistently ranked among the top 10 barriers to entry for Drupal; it's time we addressed the #1 issue impeding this.
I was there, and I've heard it numerous times before since Matt has mentioned it to me before. When I look at WordPress's default, Kubrik, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wordpress_main_theme.png, I see something relatively plain that I could leave on my site if I were lazy (many people have). Customizing the header is all that is needed for a good looking site that is mine. When I look at zen-beach I see - A header with way too little contrast and and arbitrary wavy gradient thing that confuses me. - Overly contrasting page borders and background. Yellow is a good color for highlighting things, not a default background. Yellow also doesn't fit with our color, which is blue (specifically, some sort of community blue, not to be confused with corporate website blue or WordPress blue :) ) - Headings with the same amount of margin above and below. - Quite contrasting primary links that flow out of their dark gradient and black line prison when I try scaling the font size up and some secondary links that seem to have wandered off and are trying to hide in the top right. - A breadcrumb trail that doesn't seem to want to associate itself with the current page, but would rather hang out with the global navigation. - An arbitrary serif font in the submitted by section. To be positive for a bit.. the rest looks okay for now if I can manage to focus on it.
c) As the drops and zen-beach theme illustrate, Zen allows you to completely re-style the look and feel of the site using only CSS. We're always talking about making Drupal easier to theme. Zen as a default theme would negate the need for designers to know _any_ HTML and PHP. This can only be seen as a good thing.
I'd expect this from any theme trying to get into core.
Things you will have a hard time getting past me: - Implementing any more theme functions than we have in the core themes at the moment. (see http://drupal.org/node/81217#comment-129980)
As someone who's worked on both the documentation side and the user support side, I actually am for including template.php with the default theme and including a few examples of overrides in it. Writing documentation and explaining to end users how the template.php file works is really challenging when there's no basis in core on how to use them -- people learn best by taking an example and modifying it to their needs.
One of our themes might have this, but I'd discourage it from being the default. I'm interested in us improving default themeable functions instead of overriding them with a default theme. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
Op dinsdag 29 augustus 2006 17:40, schreef Angela Byron:
b) I don't know if you were around in Vancouver for this discussion, but Matt from WordPress pointed out that WordPress didn't start getting some really nice contributed themes until it started shipping with a nice default theme. Lack of good contributed themes has consistently ranked among the top 10 barriers to entry for Drupal; it's time we addressed the #1 issue impeding this.
I wasn't there. But why again was there decided to build one from scratch, instead of picking (one of) the most popular in contribs? Sorry to say, but the ones I see, albeit far above the average theme, are not as "visually appealing" as some themes, nor are they as solid as others. Zen is rather clean on the images, but "just changing a background color" is not easy. Zen beach and drops are nice and sound for blogs, but not as nice and sound for blogs as some ported themes. Trea hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that we needed designers to talk about design. But Morbus is right too when he complains about usability technical issues around themes too. I guess we should best submit some more and nicer themes to the contribs, and then pull in the themes that "withstand the storm" into core. I am certain that box_grey (yes, we've seen it a little too often) has proven its worth. If we look at purely "sexxyyyee" themes, I am certain that friendselectric and even meta are very popular. Why not let "the world" decide? And include a (few) themes that have proven what they are worth? Don't get me wrong, Jeff. Your themes are very solid. they are well balanced, the color scheme (albeit a bit dull for my *personal taste*) is well chosen and the technical parts seem to be worked out very well too. Its just that I am not sure why the route of including something new (unproven technology!) into a new release, when we have loads of proven technology lying around already! Bèr
Bèr Kessels wrote:
I wasn't there. But why again was there decided to build one from scratch, instead of picking (one of) the most popular in contribs?
I did make some noise about selecting a contrib theme, but I dropped it. I wasn't hitting the right note I guess. I wanted an experienced themer to come up with a short-list of well coded themes and then I intended to push a poll in drupal groups.
On 29.Aug.2006, at 05:49 PM, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Trea hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that we needed designers to talk about design. But Morbus is right too when he complains about usability technical issues around themes too.
I've been following this conversation with great interest because, as someone who develps and designs all her blogs, Drupal became a challenge more for the complexity of little details in design issues than the bigger picture of "does it work". It's a great discussion and would like to jump in a bit with some questions and comments: (1) STYLING OF FORMS I love the Drupal Theme Garden and I think Lullabot is going in the right direction with Sand ... BUT... There is no way for us to see how forms and the admin section work. I have spent an inordinate amount of time changing the size of textareas in modules. The way forms are coded in Drupal, I honestly do not know if there is a way for the coders out there to work with this; but for this blog developer/designer it is an issue. 20 rows are fine as a default, but I find 40 rows better for my taste. As a designer, I feel I ought not be messing around with the module code itself for issues of styling forms. Unfortunately, I find myself doing this with every fresh install. (2) DOES IT HAVE TO BE EITHER/OR Why can't Drupal have fixed and liquid default themes? Just asking. (3) WHAT IS 'TABLELESS'? I have not tested all the themes, so may I ask : When speaking of 'tableless' are you talking about no tables at all (even across module elements) or no tables used in the design? Because if it is a tableless design we are talking about, I have to ask : Is there something wrong with MARVIN 2k [ http://drupal.org/ project/marvin_2k_phptemplate ]? It is a tableless design (but for the calendar). I use this theme for 4 versions of culturekitchen [ www.culturekitchen.com ], another 3 for The Daily Gotham [ www.dailygotham.,com ], www.lizasabater.com and 4 blogs I am developing in 4.6 and 4.7. I never see this theme mentioned anymore in the Themes section even though it works fine with 4.5, 4.6 and 4.7 (if you don't care about the block regions). I do have to say that something 'broke' the form tabs over at culturekitchen and have not fixed it because I am working on a slight redesign that will accomodate 4 columns. I anyway have found it easy to change, because it works across browsers (at least last I saw through Browsercam). Oh ... I don't support Mac/IE. I am curious to know why it has been dropped? Best, Liza Sabater, Publisher www.culturekitchen.com www.dailygotham.com
blogdiva@culturekitchen.com wrote:
(3) WHAT IS 'TABLELESS'? I take it to mean: Tables should only used to display tabular data (think calendar, watchdog) - that's what they are for. Tables are NOT used to define the layout of the page.
andre
OK. Then mavin2k fits that description. I have no idea who was the original themer/designer, but it has been a good theme to customize. On 30.Aug.2006, at 11:15, Andre Molnar wrote:
blogdiva@culturekitchen.com wrote:
(3) WHAT IS 'TABLELESS'? I take it to mean: Tables should only used to display tabular data (think calendar, watchdog) - that's what they are for. Tables are NOT used to define the layout of the page.
andre
Since this is a tech list, I'll ask a tech question: has any work been done to give themes (read: PHPTemplate themes) full settings abilities? By this I mean the ability to configure and store more data than just booleans for search boxes and mission statements. I think allowing a site user to click some forms and choose his/her layout and colors would go a long way to ending this debate. For a demo, check out my unreleased "Nautilus" theme: http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/sandbox/mfredrickson/them... It's actually a theme and a module that allows admins to choose 1-4 column layouts, with some sane defaults. The code ended up being totally byzantine, so I'm not going to release it, but it gives you an idea of what I'd like to see in core. We're coders. Let's do some coding. -M
On 8/30/06, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@gmail.com> wrote:
Since this is a tech list, I'll ask a tech question: has any work been done to give themes (read: PHPTemplate themes) full settings abilities? By this I mean the ability to configure and store more data than just booleans for search boxes and mission statements.
You've seen this, right: http://blog.riff.org/2006_08_10_how_to_add_settings_to_custom_drupal_themes Seems like you two are either the same person and I just can't tie together a blog+emailaddress+drupalnickname or you're working on the same thing... Regards, Greg -- Greg Knaddison | Growing Venture Solutions Denver, CO | http://growingventuresolutions.com Technology Solutions for Communities, Individuals, and Small Businesses
Neet idea! This would make usability testing much easier, e.g. have people try different color combinations and vote on what they like best without having to change themes to change a color or two. -----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Greg Knaddison - GVS Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:52 PM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] New Themes for New Drupal On 8/30/06, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@gmail.com> wrote:
Since this is a tech list, I'll ask a tech question: has any work been done to give themes (read: PHPTemplate themes) full settings abilities? By this I mean the ability to configure and store more data than just booleans for search boxes and mission statements.
You've seen this, right: http://blog.riff.org/2006_08_10_how_to_add_settings_to_custom_drupal_themes Seems like you two are either the same person and I just can't tie together a blog+emailaddress+drupalnickname or you're working on the same thing... Regards, Greg -- Greg Knaddison | Growing Venture Solutions Denver, CO | http://growingventuresolutions.com Technology Solutions for Communities, Individuals, and Small Businesses -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/433 - Release Date: 8/30/2006
Also look at http://drupal.org/node/57676 Walt Daniels skrev:
Neet idea! This would make usability testing much easier, e.g. have people try different color combinations and vote on what they like best without having to change themes to change a color or two.
-----Original Message----- From: development-bounces@drupal.org [mailto:development-bounces@drupal.org] On Behalf Of Greg Knaddison - GVS Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:52 PM To: development@drupal.org Subject: Re: [development] New Themes for New Drupal
On 8/30/06, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@gmail.com> wrote:
Since this is a tech list, I'll ask a tech question: has any work been done to give themes (read: PHPTemplate themes) full settings abilities? By this I mean the ability to configure and store more data than just booleans for search boxes and mission statements.
You've seen this, right:
http://blog.riff.org/2006_08_10_how_to_add_settings_to_custom_drupal_themes
Seems like you two are either the same person and I just can't tie together a blog+emailaddress+drupalnickname or you're working on the same thing...
Regards, Greg -- Greg Knaddison | Growing Venture Solutions Denver, CO | http://growingventuresolutions.com Technology Solutions for Communities, Individuals, and Small Businesses
I'm just catching up on this discussion. I think Trae has made some excellent points. If I may add what may come of as snark to some folks here, I will just note: * Why does it have to be one theme? If 4 or 5 themes shipped with Drupal, average non-technical users would have some quick options. Fixed and variable alternatives could be offered. (I'm not a fan of fluid themes b/c of problems with readability, but that's just my own view.) * This thread on /theming/ has gone on for the better part of a couple of days, and not once has it been brought into the themes discussion list, which begs the question of how themes are to be evaluated, developed, etc. Just sayin'. Personally, I don't care at all for Bluemarine but have no big problem with the other core themes. I also like Box Grey enough to not hold its tables against it. ;) Laura
On 30.Aug.2006, at 02:30 PM, Laura Scott wrote:
* Why does it have to be one theme? If 4 or 5 themes shipped with Drupal, average non-technical users would have some quick options. Fixed and variable alternatives could be offered. (I'm not a fan of fluid themes b/c of problems with readability, but that's just my own view.)
* This thread on /theming/ has gone on for the better part of a couple of days, and not once has it been brought into the themes discussion list, which begs the question of how themes are to be evaluated, developed, etc. Just sayin'.
I agree completely, although I honestly never thought of this discussion about being either/or, but now that I go back on the thread, I have to agree. The ditro should have several choices; two of them being (1) liquid and (2) fixed-width versions of the same theme. / liza
Op donderdag 31 augustus 2006 19:13, schreef blogdiva@culturekitchen.com:
I agree completely, although I honestly never thought of this discussion about being either/or, but now that I go back on the thread, I have to agree. The ditro should have several choices; two of them being (1) liquid and (2) fixed-width versions of the same theme.
No matter how *cool* and smoozy looking a fixed width can be (lets leave personal preferences out for a minute) it is simply *not* possible in Drupal right now. Drupal cannot have a fixed width theme, build from CSS (CSS without severe hacks), and still stand up to the admin-area-lakmoes-proof. Point me to one single fixed with theme that *works* in Drupals backend, on its node-submission forms (don't forget that you cannot swicth to an admin theme for stuff such as "edit your forum entry"). I am /not/ pleading for an admin-theme, because that is only a partly solution to a problem I am trying to describe. With "not breaking" I also don't mean "on my site / my configuration" or even "on my screen". I mean something that widthstands views tables, accesslog tables, wide forms, floating forms, collapsible fieldsets, lots-of-tabs, etceteras. Really, if someone can point to a fixed width theme that does not break in the admin parts, the (eventhough the exeption is proof for the rule as we say in Dutch), then we could investigate if we want fixed with themes in Drupal's core. Else we have a long way to go, and first should fix up Drupal to support fixed w. themes better! Right now the discussion is: We want some themes that cannot work in Drupal in core. Wich is a none-discussion if we don't figure out the first issue instead. Bèr
On 01.Sep.2006, at 05:20, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Point me to one single fixed with theme that *works* in Drupals backend, on its node-submission forms (don't forget that you cannot swicth to an admin theme for stuff such as "edit your forum entry"). I am /not/ pleading for an admin-theme, because that is only a partly solution to a problem I am trying to describe. With "not breaking" I also don't mean "on my site / my configuration" or even "on my screen". I mean something that widthstands views tables, accesslog tables, wide forms, floating forms, collapsible fieldsets, lots-of-tabs, etceteras.
Ber Kessels. The voice of reason. Bravo. / liza
On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 11:20 +0200, Bèr Kessels wrote:
Op donderdag 31 augustus 2006 19:13, schreef blogdiva@culturekitchen.com:
I agree completely, although I honestly never thought of this discussion about being either/or, but now that I go back on the thread, I have to agree. The ditro should have several choices; two of them being (1) liquid and (2) fixed-width versions of the same theme.
No matter how *cool* and smoozy looking a fixed width can be (lets leave personal preferences out for a minute) it is simply *not* possible in Drupal right now.
Drupal cannot have a fixed width theme, build from CSS (CSS without severe hacks), and still stand up to the admin-area-lakmoes-proof.
Point me to one single fixed with theme that *works* in Drupals backend, on its node-submission forms (don't forget that you cannot swicth to an admin theme for stuff such as "edit your forum entry"). I am /not/ pleading for an admin-theme, because that is only a partly solution to a problem I am trying to describe. With "not breaking" I also don't mean "on my site / my configuration" or even "on my screen". I mean something that widthstands views tables, accesslog tables, wide forms, floating forms, collapsible fieldsets, lots-of-tabs, etceteras.
Really, if someone can point to a fixed width theme that does not break in the admin parts, the (eventhough the exeption is proof for the rule as we say in Dutch), then we could investigate if we want fixed with themes in Drupal's core. Else we have a long way to go, and first should fix up Drupal to support fixed w. themes better!
Right now the discussion is: We want some themes that cannot work in Drupal in core. Wich is a none-discussion if we don't figure out the first issue instead.
Bèr
Its easy enough to switch to page-admin.tpl.php in template.php, or just load a different admin stylesheet. Its really not that challenging.
riff.org is fgm on Drupal.org (Frederic Marand from la belle France), so not the same person as Mark Fredrickson. On 8/30/06, Greg Knaddison - GVS <Greg@growingventuresolutions.com> wrote:
On 8/30/06, Mark Fredrickson <mark.m.fredrickson@gmail.com> wrote:
Since this is a tech list, I'll ask a tech question: has any work been done to give themes (read: PHPTemplate themes) full settings abilities? By this I mean the ability to configure and store more data than just booleans for search boxes and mission statements.
You've seen this, right:
http://blog.riff.org/2006_08_10_how_to_add_settings_to_custom_drupal_themes
Seems like you two are either the same person and I just can't tie together a blog+emailaddress+drupalnickname or you're working on the same thing...
On 30 Aug 2006, at 18:40, Mark Fredrickson wrote:
It's actually a theme and a module that allows admins to choose 1-4 column layouts, with some sane defaults. The code ended up being totally byzantine, so I'm not going to release it, but it gives you an idea of what I'd like to see in core.
We're coders. Let's do some coding.
Make sure to use this: http://www.acko.net/dev/farbtastic. :) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Absolutely (, in combination with a "color scheme generator" for colorblind admins ;) Dries Buytaert skrev:
On 30 Aug 2006, at 18:40, Mark Fredrickson wrote:
It's actually a theme and a module that allows admins to choose 1-4 column layouts, with some sane defaults. The code ended up being totally byzantine, so I'm not going to release it, but it gives you an idea of what I'd like to see in core.
We're coders. Let's do some coding.
Make sure to use this: http://www.acko.net/dev/farbtastic. :)
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
Jeff Robbins wrote:
Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal. There's still a fair amount of bug fixing, tweaking, and
Lets try setting some goals here: * It must be a good theme technically. - Work in the browsers we say Drupal works in (it is somewhere in the handbook). - Be tableless, because tables are for storing tabular data, not visual layout. - Not override more themeable functions than we already do. - Have good code style. * It must look good. * It must be customizable. - By people who are never going to touch the CSS. The theme configuration options need to work and produce good results. - And by people who will touch the CSS. * It must improve the Drupal brand. This is the first thing people see. This is just a quick list, so feel free to tell us what needs to be changed. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
Neil Drumm wrote:
Lets try setting some goals here:
* It must be a good theme technically. - Work in the browsers we say Drupal works in (it is somewhere in the handbook). - Be tableless, because tables are for storing tabular data, not visual layout. - Not override more themeable functions than we already do. - Have good code style. * It must look good.
- Put the content first and avoid visually noisy design.
* It must be customizable. - By people who are never going to touch the CSS. The theme configuration options need to work and produce good results. - And by people who will touch the CSS. * It must improve the Drupal brand. This is the first thing people see.
This is just a quick list, so feel free to tell us what needs to be changed.
-- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
Neil Drumm a ecrit le 29/08/2006 20:27:
Neil Drumm wrote:
Lets try setting some goals here:
* It must be a good theme technically. - Work in the browsers we say Drupal works in (it is somewhere in the handbook). - Be tableless, because tables are for storing tabular data, not visual layout. - Not override more themeable functions than we already do. - Have good code style. * It must look good.
- Put the content first and avoid visually noisy design. I have to agree with the "noisy design" part. These themes look fine for _some_ site, I guess I wouldn't mind bumping into one of them while browsing, but I think they're visually too "involved" to fit for _the default drupal theme_. This can't represent the drupal brand.
Someone (Drumm as well ?) mentioned the "plainness" of Kubrick WP theme. I think we have to stick to that. Now, maybe this is only a matter of CSS ? yched.
Neil Drumm wrote:
... * It must be customizable. - By people who are never going to touch the CSS. The theme configuration options need to work and produce good results. ... I can do that, if you let me ;) I have been working on a patch to let phptemplate-based themes define their own settings, http://drupal.org/node/57676. (most work done by oscnet and Heine) I have wanted to create a *highly* configurable theme for quite some time...
On Tuesday 29 August 2006 13:12, Neil Drumm wrote:
Jeff Robbins wrote:
Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal. There's still a fair amount of bug fixing, tweaking, and
Lets try setting some goals here:
* It must be a good theme technically. - Work in the browsers we say Drupal works in (it is somewhere in the handbook). - Be tableless, because tables are for storing tabular data, not visual layout. - Not override more themeable functions than we already do. - Have good code style. * It must look good. * It must be customizable. - By people who are never going to touch the CSS. The theme configuration options need to work and produce good results. - And by people who will touch the CSS. * It must improve the Drupal brand. This is the first thing people see.
This is just a quick list, so feel free to tell us what needs to be changed.
I am reminded of the Slashdot effort to modernize their design. First, they cleaned up the underlying HTML to not be 1995-style tag soup. Then, they made a call for CSS efforts, with the description of "it should be Slashdot, but not. It should have all the elements that visually make Slashdot what it is, but be new and cool. It should change everything and change nothing at the same time." Somehow that contradictory description came up with several halfway-decent designs. :-) Should we be thinking along the same lines? Don't throw out and replace BlueMarine with something new and fancy and OMG-so-sexy, but spruce up and modernize BlueMarine to not look/feel 1995-ish. The path to get there could go through Zen, but the end result should keep that "simple first" feel. Hell, just switching to the 3D Druplicon would be a market improvement, branding-wise. :-) Question: I know we want to avoid CSS browser hacks. What about extensions? BlueBeach uses the Gecko-specific -moz-border-radius attribute. Would that be kosher for a default theme? -- Larry Garfield AIM: LOLG42 larry@garfieldtech.com ICQ: 6817012 "If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
Actually I love Drupal, druplicon and the bluemarine theme. But that's just because I've been living with Drupal for the past four years and some... If I was out there looking for a new girlfriend, I'd be looking for something completely different. Drupal - as it is - says "amateur" all over the place. I hate to say it, but if the redesign issue is to be taken seriously, please throw out EVERYTHING! You can't do redesign successfully without sacrifice. That includes the druplicon. Make it VERY CLEAR what the goal is. If it is to satisfy the developer community you don't need to change a thing. They love it already as it is. If it is to attract new professional developer "blood" you need to change some things. If it is to attract new consulting companies doing implementation you need to change even more. If it is to take on wordpress and joomla in the <irony>eversointeresting</irony> popularity race - you need to CHANGE EVERYTHING! You simply can't have Druplicon AND be head to head with joomla. Make sure you all know what the objective is. Best Gunnar
If it is to satisfy the developer community you don't need to change a thing. They love it already as it is.
On the contrary, I believe this is the goal we are shooting for - developers aren't finding the default Drupal theme to be adequate and wish for something that: 1) looks good out of the box 2) is relatively simple and easy to modify NOTE: bluemarine didn't satisfy either of those, so right now it's about replacing it with something (anything!) better. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
On 30 Aug 2006, at 08:53, Larry Garfield wrote:
Should we be thinking along the same lines? Don't throw out and replace BlueMarine with something new and fancy and OMG-so-sexy, but spruce up and modernize BlueMarine to not look/feel 1995-ish. The path to get there could go through Zen, but the end result should keep that "simple first" feel. Hell, just switching to the 3D Druplicon would be a market improvement, branding-wise. :-)
I'd accept patches that cool up BlueMarine (using incremental improvements). When I upgrade certain software (OS, browser, ...), subtle UI improvements can trigger a contented smile on my face. It makes me believe that the software is 'updated', 'polished' and 'fresh'. It's actually quite fun to discover such improvements. :) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
On Wed, August 30, 2006 9:03 am, Dries Buytaert said:
On 30 Aug 2006, at 08:53, Larry Garfield wrote:
Should we be thinking along the same lines? Don't throw out and replace BlueMarine with something new and fancy and OMG-so-sexy, but spruce up and modernize BlueMarine to not look/feel 1995-ish. The path to get there could go through Zen, but the end result should keep that "simple first" feel. Hell, just switching to the 3D Druplicon would be a market improvement, branding-wise. :-)
I'd accept patches that cool up BlueMarine (using incremental improvements).
When I upgrade certain software (OS, browser, ...), subtle UI improvements can trigger a contented smile on my face. It makes me believe that the software is 'updated', 'polished' and 'fresh'. It's actually quite fun to discover such improvements. :)
-- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
I presume those would be features, not bugs, so I don't think I'd be able to do much in the next 48 hours. :-( But good to know for future reference. --Larry Garfield
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Larry Garfield wrote:
On Wed, August 30, 2006 9:03 am, Dries Buytaert said:
I'd accept patches that cool up BlueMarine (using incremental improvements).
When I upgrade certain software (OS, browser, ...), subtle UI improvements can trigger a contented smile on my face. It makes me believe that the software is 'updated', 'polished' and 'fresh'. It's actually quite fun to discover such improvements. :)
I presume those would be features, not bugs, so I don't think I'd be able to do much in the next 48 hours. :-( But good to know for future reference.
Larry, useability improvements are usually accepted after the code freeze :) The patches should not modify the APIs, so contrib module authors can get ready for the release. Gabor
On 30 Aug 2006, at 21:14, Larry Garfield wrote:
I presume those would be features, not bugs, so I don't think I'd be able to do much in the next 48 hours. :-( But good to know for future reference.
On September 1st we'll freeze the APIs, but there will be time left for (i) usability improvements, (ii) performance improvements and (iii) documentation updates. Read: we stop breaking code, and start applying polish. We can still tweak themes after the code freeze. (Let's not side-track this discussion with 'code freeze' talk. If you want to talk about it more, start a new topic. If not, I'll follow up with more information on September 1st.) -- Dries Buytaert :: http://www.buytaert.net/
2006/8/30, Dries Buytaert <dries.buytaert@gmail.com>:
Read: we stop breaking code, and start applying polish. We can still tweak themes after the code freeze.
So i'm late for a suggestion... I was just asking myself if Drupal shouldn't integrate those stufs: <http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html> .htc for PNGs transparencies <http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html> .htc for pseudo-classes :hover, :active, :focus <http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/> .js for better css support... So themers may concentrated on standart css without either wasting time with IE compatibily or reinventing the whell.. :/
Gildas Cotomale wrote:
I was just asking myself if Drupal shouldn't integrate those stufs: <http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html> .htc for PNGs transparencies <http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html> .htc for pseudo-classes :hover, :active, :focus <http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/> .js for better css support... So themers may concentrated on standart css without either wasting time with IE compatibily or reinventing the whell.. :/ I'm going to say -1 on adding IE specific .htc files and so on. The three items you mention in particular are fixed in IE7 (or at least, are supposed to be), and that will be pushed to IE6 users via Windows Update. People actively using CSS selectors like that should also know about the (relatively) straightforward workarounds for IE6. Hard-coding them into Drupal, save where they're absolutely necessary, means less flexibility for designers in the future as the problems are fixed.
--Jeff
On 8/31/06, Jeff Eaton <jeff@viapositiva.net> wrote:
Gildas Cotomale wrote:
I was just asking myself if Drupal shouldn't integrate those stufs: <http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html> .htc for PNGs transparencies <http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html> .htc for pseudo-classes :hover, :active, :focus <http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/> .js for better css support... So themers may concentrated on standart css without either wasting time with IE compatibily or reinventing the whell.. :/ I'm going to say -1 on adding IE specific .htc files and so on. The three items you mention in particular are fixed in IE7 (or at least, are supposed to be), and that will be pushed to IE6 users via Windows Update. People actively using CSS selectors like that should also know about the (relatively) straightforward workarounds for IE6. Hard-coding them into Drupal, save where they're absolutely necessary, means less flexibility for designers in the future as the problems are fixed.
Just a note, but the Dean Edwards javascript covers the functionality offered by the first two .htcs and has been mentioned on various MSDN blogs as an good way to create IE7 compat. sites that behave on IE6 or under, without hacks, workarounds, voodoo etc. The IE7 developers vehemently believe all such items should be placed in conditional tags. Adam
I know comments on the look of things is almost entirely a subjective thing... but I can't help but say -1 on the look. Don't get me wrong - it looks 'fine' - even 'good' - but it doesn't look as SEXY as the world's best/greatest/developer friendly/user friendly;-)/most powerful CMS should. This is a place where Drupalbucks(tm) (i.e. cash contributed to Drupal) should be spent. Put out an RFP where designers bid on the project. Part of the response to the RFP should include a 'treatment.' Post the treatments - have the community choose the one they want - and pay the theme developer to do it up right. This is about the Drupal brand and selling Drupal to the world. andre Jeff Robbins wrote:
I just want to alert everyone to the new theme work that's been placed in the issue queue:
As some of you probably know, I've been working on a new theme for Drupal that aims to become the default core theme for the next version of Drupal. There's still a fair amount of bug fixing, tweaking, and general fussing that needs to happen, but I wanted to show off the work that has been done so far, get some feedback from the community, and generally get these new themes on everyone's radar.
We've set up a test site here: http://drupaltheme.lullabot.com
You can click on the the links on the first node on the home page to see the different themes "in action".
Some background:
There is currently 1 theme with 4 sub-themes. The main theme is called "Zen" and aims to provide basic, standards-compliant, XHTML that can be easily manipulated with CSS (think: "CSS Zen Garden"). And then all of the sub-themes are simply the same HTML page structure with different CSS. The themes use a variation on the Holy Grail layout to create a table-free, 3-column, 2-column, or single column layout depending on whether blocks are enabled in the left or right columns. The themes also move the taxonomy and link lists into semantically-correct "ul" lists. The current icons used in the theme are not GPL, but Nathan Haug is currently creating icons that we will be able to use.
The subthemes: - Zen Fixed :: a fixed-width version of the basic Zen theme. - Zen Beach :: a Drupal styled theme designed by Nathan Haug. Still a bit buggy, but very promising! - Zen Drops Big :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of big water drops - Zen Drops Small :: a simple-but-pretty fixed width theme with a picture of small water drops
---------------------------------------------------------------------- _ _ _______ ______ _____ _______ | | | | | |_____| |_____] | | | |_____ |_____| |_____ |_____ | | |_____] |_____| | .com
Jeff Robbins jeff@lullabot.com tel: 877-Lullabot ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andre Molnar wrote:
I know comments on the look of things is almost entirely a subjective thing... but I can't help but say -1 on the look.
Don't get me wrong - it looks 'fine' - even 'good' - but it doesn't look as SEXY as the world's best/greatest/developer friendly/user friendly;-)/most powerful CMS should.
This is a place where Drupalbucks(tm) (i.e. cash contributed to Drupal) should be spent. Put out an RFP where designers bid on the project. Part of the response to the RFP should include a 'treatment.' Post the treatments - have the community choose the one they want - and pay the theme developer to do it up right. This is about the Drupal brand and selling Drupal to the world.
andre
Nice idea, I agree that a *large* discussion should take place at drupal.org.
At absolute worst... Does anyone have feelings about replacing some of the old-and-crusty additional themes that we include with Drupal? Even if folks are absolutely desperately attached to bluemarine, how many folks are there out there who say, "You'll take away Grey Box when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands?" There are absolutely some improvements to be made -- the themes are being shown to us *while *they're in development. But when I see people talking about 'pizzazz' and 'sexiness', I sometimes cringe. A good foundation, plus good CSS, plus pizzazz. It doesn't go the other direction. I made some of my own complaints about the colors, the layouts, the tweaky little details... Must a new theme be the second coming of Zeldman, rather than a very strong foundation plus iterative improvements? :) I like BlueMarine, but it shows its age in a big, big, big way. If you dislike the themes demonstrated, what do you LIKE about BlueMarine? I'm very curious... --Jeff
Jeff Eaton wrote:
being shown to us *while *they're in development. But when I see people
Exactly what you should be doing.
it shows its age in a big, big, big way. If you dislike the themes demonstrated, what do you LIKE about BlueMarine? I'm very curious...
I can think two things should be better at once. But if forced to say good things about bluemarine... all I can say is that it is relatively simple. To fit with today's designs it would need the blue made more bold, time spent on the fonts, some whitespace around the page margins, something to make the blocks look like blocks other than a darkish gray background, and a markup overhaul around the column layout. -- Neil Drumm http://delocalizedham.com/
But if forced to say good things about bluemarine... all I can say is that it is relatively simple. To fit with today's designs it would need the blue made more bold, time spent on the fonts, some whitespace around the page margins, something to make the blocks look like blocks other than a darkish gray background, and a markup overhaul around the column layout.
Yeah, I can agree with those things. In looking at the zen series, I think a strong case can be made that a 'BlueMarine-alike' skin for it would be a relatively straightforward step. I mentioned on IRC that BlueMarine offers something none of the variations presented so far do: With a dark header, relatively dark sidebars, and a light content area, it feels more like a 'frame around your stories' than any of the others do. I like that a lot, and I think a variation of zen that utilizes that approach, echoing the general layout of and style of BlueMarine, could be a really nice addition. --Jeff
I feel like I should chime in here and set the record straight on a few points that have been made in this thread. First of all, the concept that "we should spend some money on this and get some designers involved": I hate to stoop to pulling out resumes here, but I worked on these themes along with my wife Jennifer Niederst Robbins (go ahead... google her). And though I would not call myself exclusively a designer (though I have in the past), Jennifer and I both have a LOT of design experience. Nathan Haug graduated with a degree in fine art was hired on at Lullabot for his great skill as both a designer and web developer. And we've all put in quite a bit of paid time on these. So the idea of getting designers involved and spending some money is already underway. Lullabot has developed Drupal themes for MTV, TWiT, Participant Productions, and others. A good standards-based CSS-compliant starting theme is something that we've needed every single time. It's something that we will use over and over, so I have no problem spending money, time, and resources on it. I would also encourage those who feel that they have some design/CSS chops to get their hands dirty and come up with some other subthemes. After all, it's called "Zen" in homage to the CSS Zen Garden's "try it yourself" attitude. The Zen theme is a framework for creating your own CSS-based themes. I would love nothing more than to see several hundred better CSS- based themes contributed and ready for release in Drupal 5.1. It would mean that we'd have that many designers realizing the potential of Drupal. In the meantime, please consider whether this is an improvement over Bluemarine.
I'd also like to sponsor development of a great default theme for Drupal. Andre's idea of an RFP system followed by a community vote sounds reasonable to me. Ballpark, how much might this cost? Is this something that should be on drupal.org? Dave On 8/29/06, Jeff Robbins <lists@jjeff.com> wrote:
I feel like I should chime in here and set the record straight on a few points that have been made in this thread. [...] A good standards-based CSS-compliant starting theme is something that we've needed every single time. It's something that we will use over and over, so I have no problem spending money, time, and resources on it.
You can't design by committee. This is what the themes that were presented on the list feel like have been done. Someone, one person, has to be selected, build a theme they like, and then let that be that. When you start taking into consideration this persons idea of what is good or bad, or that persons idea, then you run into the old story of a Donkey with a horses head, elephant ears, zebra stripes and so on... Ultimately, it's going to come down to Dries (or Neil I reckon) picking the theme. And they'll have to do so with support of the community. This is always going to achieve a sub-par theme. Sure, some will be happy with it, but in the end it won't be top-notch and professional. I'm not even saying I'd have to do it, ;) Steven Wittens has an excellent eye for design, he is the rare case of "code and beauty" coming together. Whoever did the meta theme, while the css code and layout for things is a nightmare IMHO, it's a somewhat of a half-way decent looking theme; albeit buggy and doesn't work with IE6 well. The biggest thing, as I said in the beginning about all this is, the code is probably really tight on these things if Ted and Lullabot put them out, that is a major plus. If these things are included in core, will I stop using Drupal? No, heh, Will others stop using it? Nope. So it's not that big of a deal really. I'd love to see something super top-notch and professional make it in, but if it can't, then let's settle for good quality standards for the theme base, and go from there. If we can't fund work on either cleaning these up, or having someone design a theme, then this seems to be the next best thing. Again, Kudos to Lullabot for putting their work out there in front of the community, it's a hard thing to do, and EVERYONE has opinions and will try and rip your stuff apart. My opinion still is that it shouldn't go into core with the way it looks now, but that's just an opinion. :) Trae On 8/29/06, Dave Nugent <dave@initsoft.com> wrote:
I'd also like to sponsor development of a great default theme for Drupal. Andre's idea of an RFP system followed by a community vote sounds reasonable to me. Ballpark, how much might this cost? Is this something that should be on drupal.org?
Dave
On 8/29/06, Jeff Robbins <lists@jjeff.com> wrote:
I feel like I should chime in here and set the record straight on a few points that have been made in this thread. [...] A good standards-based CSS-compliant starting theme is something that we've needed every single time. It's something that we will use over and over, so I have no problem spending money, time, and resources on it.
-- Trae McCombs || http://occy.net/ Founder - Themes.org // Linux.com CivicSpaceLabs - http://civicspacelabs.com/
Trae McCombs wrote:
You can't design by committee.
Let me set the record straight. 1) The lullabot team aren't amateurs and there is no question about their potential ability. 2) I agree Design CANNOT be done by committee. The proposal was for an open and transparent bidding process where all design teams could participate and have a chance at wowing the world with their skills - and get paid for it. Lullabot would (I assume) be one of the bidding parties. I never suggested that all design ideas be put to a vote. I suggested that a vetted list of proposal be presented to the community (perhaps the top 3 or 4 candidates from the vetting process). The whole point of an RFP process is to separate the wheat from the chaff - and to provide transparency in the process so that community dollars are spent in a way that doesn't show favourtism. Thats all. andre
Op woensdag 30 augustus 2006 01:47, schreef Dave Nugent:
I'd also like to sponsor development of a great default theme for Drupal. Andre's idea of an RFP system followed by a community vote sounds reasonable to me. Ballpark, how much might this cost? Is this something that should be on drupal.org?
Plugging my effort for a new 2006 compliant XHTML base (as opposed to CSS base! start off with proper XHTML) http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/whatsinitsname/ http://groups.drupal.org/node/928 http://webschuur.com/taxonomy/term/65 and my first theme built on this base: http://vabusiness.us/ Second one is being negotiated right now. None of these two will be released, but the base will be improved over time and is available. I have a call for sponsored work for a base theme (amoungst others) here: http://webschuur.com/node/645 Bèr
As an author of much-hated Bluemarine (and never-mentioned Chameleon) I feel like I should drop in too. Why is Bluemarine is so bad? I do not have clear answer to that, it just represents a state of web layouts back on those days (Oct 23 2002 to be excact, it's almost 4 years now http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/bluemarine/bluemar... ), also the state of Drupal back then (basically any new design was better than previous themes we had) and of course, the state of my design skills at that time. Bluemarine was meant to be a niche theme, it was rough copycat of a information architecture portal http://www.boxesandarrows.com (surprisinlgy their layout have stayed the same all these years too ;). Bluemarine look was based on this http://web.archive.org/web/20041127005822/http://www.boxesandarrows.com/ state) Somehow my theme got popular in Drupal and since there was not much of a competition (ealier themes were even more...um...yknow), it was picked as a stock Drupal theme (by Dries, right?). I can not recall the excact history, there were the xtemplate days of bluemarine and all the other sidesteps by many contributors, but the general look of Bluemarine stayed. Dries and Steven perhaps can recall it better I would presume. Bear in mind, Bluemarine was never ever designed as a Drupal default please-all theme. It just represented my aestetic likings back on those time and the niche sites I visited. As the name suggests, Boxes And Arrows website is about conceptual models, wireframes, schematic drawings and for that reason, totally plain, no-glitter theme is really suitable and playing along with the site's main topic. BUT the requirements of Drupal sites (and also for Drupal.org what also had Bluemarine as a default theme for many years) have different requirements and different tunes. Steven addressed the drupal.org part with his makeover, now it is time to have completely new themeset for Drupal distribution too that represents the state of web in 2006 and why not couple of years beyond. Let's make a nice gravestone for Bluemarine. It should locate somewhere in a windy dusky coast, dark blue sea and roaring waves.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Kristjan Jansen wrote:
BUT the requirements of Drupal sites (and also for Drupal.org what also had Bluemarine as a default theme for many years) have different requirements and different tunes. Steven addressed the drupal.org part with his makeover, now it is time to have completely new themeset for Drupal distribution too that represents the state of web in 2006 and why not couple of years beyond.
Let's make a nice gravestone for Bluemarine. It should locate somewhere in a windy dusky coast, dark blue sea and roaring waves.
Well, some applications of Drupal wouls still need a bluemarine-like theme (as you pointed out boxes and arrows, they still use this color scheme and layout). The Sands (and Sands_CSS) themes pointed out earlier are following the blumarine root, and the "holygrail" theme in contrib is an exact copy of bluemarine without tables for layout. So bluemarine is not going to be forgotten, neither it should be. Gabor
Kristjan Jansen wrote:
...
Let's make a nice gravestone for Bluemarine. It should locate somewhere in a windy dusky coast, dark blue sea and roaring waves.
*Gasp*. No way!! Jokes aside, I would hate to see Bluemarine out of core altogether. I use Bluemarine like Ber uses Wireframe - it helps me develop without distraction.
Jeff Robbins wrote:
The Zen theme is a framework for creating your own CSS-based themes. I would love nothing more than to see several hundred better CSS-based themes contributed and ready for release in Drupal 5.1. It would mean that we'd have that many designers realizing the potential of Drupal.
That is something that comes up a lot. A huge number of people out there have taken it upon themselves to design style sheets for their web engine/cms of choice. That's not always easy for the hobbyist/curious designer to do in Drupal. It's possible with any of the well-designed themes, but very few have the level of flexibility necessary to do anything more than change the font and colors. Contributing factors have included our historically 'dense' CSS file (which often required an all-or-nothing approach to CSS overrides), the necessity of diving into code to override specific kinds of pages and/or sidebar blocks, and core themes that while adequite used relatively outdated design techniques like table-layout and so on.. This version of Drupal makes huge strides in simplifying the forest of CSS. In addition, it's now possible to drop in individual .tpl files for specific page URLs and blocks. A 'foundation' theme like zen would also be awesome for hanging CSS skins on.
In the meantime, please consider whether this is an improvement over Bluemarine. From a structural standpoint, I think it's a home run. There are still a lot of subtle tweaks that I think would make it a smash on other levels, too.
--Jeff
Sorry to be a bother but, is Zen the theme with the lawn chair? On 29.Aug.2006, at 09:54 PM, Jeff Eaton wrote:
Jeff Robbins wrote:
The Zen theme is a framework for creating your own CSS-based themes. I would love nothing more than to see several hundred better CSS-based themes contributed and ready for release in Drupal 5.1. It would mean that we'd have that many designers realizing the potential of Drupal.
That is something that comes up a lot. A huge number of people out there have taken it upon themselves to design style sheets for their web engine/cms of choice. That's not always easy for the hobbyist/curious designer to do in Drupal. It's possible with any of the well-designed themes, but very few have the level of flexibility necessary to do anything more than change the font and colors.
Contributing factors have included our historically 'dense' CSS file (which often required an all-or-nothing approach to CSS overrides), the necessity of diving into code to override specific kinds of pages and/or sidebar blocks, and core themes that while adequite used relatively outdated design techniques like table- layout and so on.. This version of Drupal makes huge strides in simplifying the forest of CSS. In addition, it's now possible to drop in individual .tpl files for specific page URLs and blocks. A 'foundation' theme like zen would also be awesome for hanging CSS skins on.
In the meantime, please consider whether this is an improvement over Bluemarine. From a structural standpoint, I think it's a home run. There are still a lot of subtle tweaks that I think would make it a smash on other levels, too.
--Jeff
2006/8/30, blogdiva@culturekitchen.com <blogdiva@culturekitchen.com>:
Sorry to be a bother but, is Zen the theme with the lawn chair?
Zen is the theme introduced in the initial message of this thread: http://lists.drupal.org/archives/development/2006-08/msg00889.html -- Frederik 'Freso' S. Olesen <http://freso.dk/>
On 29.Aug.2006, at 04:52 PM, Jeff Eaton wrote:
BlueMarine offers something none of the variations presented so far do: With a dark header, relatively dark sidebars, and a light content area, it feels more like a 'frame around your stories' than any of the others do.
As a writer and designer that's what I don't like about it and yet understand that as a publisher I need real estate for ads. So I change Marvin2kPHP to put the columns on one side (which is how I had designed culturektichen when it was on MovableType). Liza Sabater, Publisher www.culturekitchen.com www.dailygotham.com
Op dinsdag 29 augustus 2006 22:40, schreef Neil Drumm:
But if forced to say good things about bluemarine... all I can say is that it is relatively simple. To fit with today's designs it would need the blue made more bold, time spent on the fonts, some whitespace around the page margins, something to make the blocks look like blocks other than a darkish gray background, and a markup overhaul around the column layout.
http://themes.drupal.org/node?theme=sands (http://themes.drupal.org/node?theme=sands_css) with a little love on the boxes? It has it all. Simple, very much like BM, well balanced, some eyecandy (gradients, icons) and it has solid and rather well structured XHTML and CSS. Bèr
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, [iso-8859-1] B�r Kessels wrote:
Op dinsdag 29 augustus 2006 22:40, schreef Neil Drumm:
But if forced to say good things about bluemarine... all I can say is that it is relatively simple. To fit with today's designs it would need the blue made more bold, time spent on the fonts, some whitespace around the page margins, something to make the blocks look like blocks other than a darkish gray background, and a markup overhaul around the column layout.
http://themes.drupal.org/node?theme=sands (http://themes.drupal.org/node?theme=sands_css) with a little love on the boxes? It has it all. Simple, very much like BM, well balanced, some eyecandy (gradients, icons) and it has solid and rather well structured XHTML and CSS.
Well, the icon is too 3dish, and which is worse: these nice looking icons come from the famfamfam collection, which is not GPL. These icons should not be in the contrib repository at the first place. BTW the theme authors live site is better to get a feel of the theme: http://samat.org/ Gabor
On 29.Aug.2006, at 07:38 PM, Gabor Hojtsy wrote:
BTW the theme authors live site is better to get a feel of the theme: http://samat.org/
Gabor
Whoa. Too texty. I honestly don't like it; but that's because I don't like BlueMarine. / liza
On Tue, August 29, 2006 2:22 pm, Jeff Eaton said:
At absolute worst... Does anyone have feelings about replacing some of the old-and-crusty additional themes that we include with Drupal? Even if folks are absolutely desperately attached to bluemarine, how many folks are there out there who say, "You'll take away Grey Box when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands?"
There are absolutely some improvements to be made -- the themes are being shown to us *while *they're in development. But when I see people talking about 'pizzazz' and 'sexiness', I sometimes cringe. A good foundation, plus good CSS, plus pizzazz. It doesn't go the other direction. I made some of my own complaints about the colors, the layouts, the tweaky little details...
Must a new theme be the second coming of Zeldman, rather than a very strong foundation plus iterative improvements? :) I like BlueMarine, but it shows its age in a big, big, big way. If you dislike the themes demonstrated, what do you LIKE about BlueMarine? I'm very curious...
--Jeff
What I like about BlueMarine: - It's ugly. Really. I KNOW when I'm working on a site setup or when using it to buid a new module that I am not looking at the final look. I'm doing a prototype. Building the theme for it comes later, and I can very easily tell that I'm working with a placeholder. - It works with everything. When developing a new module, all I need is a place to do the basic layout of the module's UI. I don't need or want to deal with fixed width silliness or float problems. I just want to say "And now this generates a form, followed by a table, and for the rest, punt." - It's simple. OK, the CSS for Drupal is anything but simple, but that's getting better. :-) The stock .tpl.php files, though, make it very easy to see what's going on and how the basic layout is achieved. It's a good learning tool. - It's simple. There's no flashiness to get in the way of me looking at what I'm actually doing rather than the design. Distracting people from the content with flashy graphics is a job that comes later, after the content and code is figurd out. OK, maybe those aren't the best qualties in a "default" theme, but it's certainly good qualities in a "developer-friendly" or "learning" theme. Right now, those are the same thing. Whatever we do with the default, let's keep in mind the latter factors. --Larry Garfield
participants (34)
-
Adam Cooper -
Andre Molnar -
Angela Byron -
blogdiva＠culturekitchen.com -
Bèr Kessels -
Chris Johnson -
Darrel O'Pry -
Dave Nugent -
Dries Buytaert -
Farsheed -
Frederik 'Freso' S. Olesen -
Gabor Hojtsy -
Gildas Cotomale -
Greg Knaddison - GVS -
Gunnar Langemark -
Hannes Lilljequist -
Jason Flatt -
Jeff Eaton -
Jeff Robbins -
Johan Forngren -
Karoly Negyesi -
Khalid B -
Kristjan Jansen -
Larry Garfield -
Laura Scott -
Mark Fredrickson -
Morbus Iff -
Neil Drumm -
Robin Monks -
sime -
Stefan Nagtegaal -
Trae McCombs -
Walt Daniels -
Yves CHEDEMOIS